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tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

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tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby maryQ1988 » Sat 17th Apr 2010, 03:23pm

Just fitted the new 998cc engine (has a minisport fast road cam and stage 1 kit) i have tuned the car to Haynes standard - 8 degrees BTDC and turned the thread on the carb 2 full turns from top. It runs fine on idle but i was on my way to Green and Whites at Sunderland and couldnt get the mini past 65mph :( every 3-5 miles we pulled into a layby and tweaked the carb a little to get the best mixture and after the 5th tweak we got it up to 70mph but whats frustrating is the mini wont pull at all even when at optimum revs for the cam (3,500+)

Not only will it not pull but when i hit the 50mph mark the car feels like its pulling back, like it can go faster but doesnt want to. there is a slight missfire but nothing major.

The car pulls fine in 1st and 2nd its only getting into the higher speeds. Today i couldnt get her past 56!

Any ideas would be MUCH appreciated. I will soon be taking it in to G&W for a static tune but want to get the car as good as possible so the lads can get the best out of the car and to save me a bit of money!

I have a HS4 carb with the minisport stage one AAV needle. Im using Halfords 20/50 road oil in the carb (is that too thick/thin?) with the minisport stage one cone filter.

I am also using a mechanical fuel pump that came with the engine and it seems to be working fine. I have put in an inline fuel filter which i assumed would stay full of fuel but seems to suck a little bit in at a time so im not sure if the car is fuel starved or not.

thanks guys

Dave
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby dannoodle » Sat 17th Apr 2010, 03:54pm

Adjust the timing... you've got an uprated cam but running it on standard timing. Follow the procedure in the Haynes manul, but keep on turning the dizzy clockwise until the revs stop rising, then turn dizzy back anti-clockwise untill the revs drop off by a couple of hundred. Tighten it all up and go for a spin, if you hear "pinking" back it off a little more.

Make sure leads are on the correct way, plugs gapped correctly, valve clearences set corretly etc

I don't know what needle you should be looking for im afraid, but I will give you the best piece of advice, which not many people actually do who own mini's, and that is to get it set up on a rolling road asap. Seriously, it will save you alot of heartache.

I am sure AC or KC will pop up and tell you which needle to be starting with...

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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby philster » Sat 17th Apr 2010, 04:06pm

as above the timing isn't gonna be the same as it says in the haynes cos it's not a standard engine :wink:

Use KC's article to tweak the timing, then it's just a case of getting the mixture right, i'd seriously get it in for a rolling road tune though :wink:

http://www.minispares.com/Articles.aspx?ty=ad&aid=287

if that's that spec you're gonna stick with i'd also recommend sending your dizzy to AC to have the curve tweaked, it's the small things that make all the difference :D
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby Lilspeed » Sat 17th Apr 2010, 05:40pm

Agreed, definitely a carb needle issue, and a rolling road session is the only way to get the most out of your new motor. By the way, that should be a great fun engine when it's sorted! Tuned thou's rock! :rock:
An AAV needle seems a little weak for your spec? I'd try an AAA or AAM as a starting point.
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby maryQ1988 » Sat 17th Apr 2010, 06:39pm

Right ill try the timing and adjust the screw on carb aswell.

When i took it to Green & Whites (I think it was Ian i spoke to woth long goatee) i was told that as the engine wasnt heavily modified i should just have a static tune rather than fork out £100+ for a rolling road test. I know their mini background so trust his opinion but in the back of my mind i would like to get it on the rollers.

I had an AAA needle in my old engine should i change them over? The AAV needle came with the stage kit so assumed it was the best one to use.

Ill crack on with the advice given and will post back soon. If anyone has any other suggestions in the mean time im all ears :)

Cheers

Dave
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby Lilspeed » Sat 17th Apr 2010, 07:47pm

To get your mixture somewhere near right;
With the engine up to normal temperature, turn up the idle screw to get a fast idle, 1200-1500 rpm perhaps, weaken the mixture until the revs start to reduce, then richen until revs stop increasing and the exhaust note is smooth and clean,(no "chuffing" or misfiring). Wind the idle back down and go for a spin!
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby minimaniac » Sat 17th Apr 2010, 07:52pm

="maryQ1988"]
I have a HS4 carb with the minisport stage one AAV needle.


THAT is the majority of your problem! I don't know whether Minisport have a load of AAV needles that they want to get rid of but this needle profile is completely wrong. All I can assume is someone can't read the difference between AAV (which is useless) and AAU (which should be OK) or they assume that the AAV is near enough the same. :roll:

Personally I'd take it back and after hitting them over the head with it get it replaced for a AAA or AAU.



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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby maryQ1988 » Sun 18th Apr 2010, 03:06pm

Had a few mins today to do something on the mini..

I have 2 carbs in the garage one with an AAC needle, one with an AAL needle and the AAV needle from minisport. I have swapped the AAV for the AAL and it seems to be running a little better with slightly more grunt but still terrible.

When i had the carb open i looked at the jet and tried to adjust it so the jet was flush with the base but when i turned the thread fully to the top but the jet was still a few mill from flush. the other carbs i have all screw flush. can this be a problem? I was given a Haynes mini carb manual and they say tighten nut till jet is flush then give two full turns anti-clockwise but still no better

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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby the wing commander » Sun 18th Apr 2010, 03:14pm

I hate to say this, BUT. You will only get the best result from your engine by taking it to a rolling road. One hour on the rollers should get it more or less right. That should NOT cost £100. Slark Race Engineering down in Salisbury charge £55 an hour. You should be able to get a better price than that where you are. Just tell the guy doing the rolling road tune up that one hour is all you can afford, can he do it within that price. After all, this is not exactly rocket science..guessing on needles and timing might improve things, but on the rollers, you will get much better results
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby Lilspeed » Sun 18th Apr 2010, 05:57pm

maryQ1988 wrote: I was given a Haynes mini carb manual and they say tighten nut till jet is flush then give two full turns anti-clockwise but still no better


These instructions are for a standard engine which yours is not.

If you want to play "carb needle lucky dip", here's a head start!!

http://www.mintylamb.co.uk/suneedle/
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby dazzler » Sun 18th Apr 2010, 06:22pm

maryQ1988 wrote: I have swapped the AAV for the AAL and it seems to be running a little better with slightly more grunt but still terrible.


Why dave when you are given the answer to your problem would you go out and rhubarb around more wasting your time?

In a nutshell you have been sent the wrong needle for your engine and you need to fit an AAA

base point wrote:STG Needles with 1 1/2 carb

998 = AAA
1098 = AAU
1275 = AAM


The guys that advised you against a RR session were talking through there bottoms mate, any car running a Carb system will always benefit from a go on the rollers (last time i had mine done it was around £75 inc vat and needle)

After fitting your base point Needle, i would then get my car booked in for a RR!
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby minimaniac » Sun 18th Apr 2010, 07:57pm

The AAV is just wrong! :roll:
The AAL Is a bit better but still way too weak especially at the top end
AAA is usually about right but can be a bit 'juicy'
AAU is a fair compromise if you want a performance and a bit of economy.

As said if you want it spot on take it to a rolling road where they know Minis :wink:
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby philster » Sun 18th Apr 2010, 09:57pm

when the car starts struggling have you tried pulling the choke a bit?

Did you adjust the timing as per the link i posted you?
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby maryQ1988 » Mon 19th Apr 2010, 08:34pm

Philster, i have adjusted the timing according to the article and she is running a little better thanks for that! As for the needle i cant get my hands on an AAA or AAU so will wait till i get it on the rollers and tell them that it needs changing before they start the session. I was looking on the Minispares website at needles and it actually stated "The AAU needle best for stage one kit" so i dont know why the hell Minisport gave me the AAV. Come to think of it Minisport have fudged up on a couple of occasions for me and for a few of the lads at the club.

Can anyone recommend a rolling road in the North East? I know there's A19 tuning on the way to Sunderland (I live in Middlesbrough) but i dont know anyone whos been there. Local club meeting this wednesday so i will put it out there.

Thanks.

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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby Brumski » Mon 19th Apr 2010, 09:05pm

maryQ1988 wrote:Can anyone recommend a rolling road in the North East? I know there's A19 tuning on the way to Sunderland (I live in Middlesbrough) but i dont know anyone whos been there. Local club meeting this wednesday so i will put it out there.

Thanks.

Dave


Not sure but have a mooch through this thread...

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25147

It's a sticky at the top of the tuning section... :wink:
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby minimaniac » Mon 19th Apr 2010, 11:37pm

="maryQ1988"]I was looking on the Minispares website at needles and it actually stated "The AAU needle best for stage one kit" so i dont know why the hell Minisport gave me the AAV.


I don't know either, but I know of at least four other stage 1 kits that they've supplied (including mine) that have included the AAV needle! What amazes me is Rob (who does the rolling road) at Minisport is good and knows his stuff but it appears that at least one numpty who works in the parts dept needs educating re SU needles! :roll:

Give them some hassle and insist on them sending a AAU or AAA because the needle they supplied is just wrong. At best it would do as yours has and not run properly but at worst it could rhubarb up the engine because it's way too weak :evil:
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby andy3lliott » Mon 19th Apr 2010, 11:54pm

i had the same problem didn't i 'minimaniac' they sent me aav
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby minimaniac » Tue 20th Apr 2010, 12:26am

andy3lliott wrote:i had the same problem didn't i 'minimaniac' they sent me aav


Yup. I forgot about yours so that's 5 that I know of that have been sent the wrong needle!!! :roll:
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby Zippyrude » Tue 20th Apr 2010, 09:17am

These mistakes are potentially quite serious. If you had a newly built engine, an incorrect needle could wreck it in only a few miles !
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby minimaniac » Tue 20th Apr 2010, 10:22am

Zippyrude wrote:These mistakes are potentially quite serious. If you had a newly built engine, an incorrect needle could wreck it in only a few miles !


Exactly.
I got my needle replaced by Minisport for a AAA (at my request) and was told at the time that someone had put the wrong needle in by mistake.

I've sent them yet another email (after all it's in their interests to get it right :roll: ) and will post it when(if) I get a reply.
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby NuFab » Tue 20th Apr 2010, 10:39am

Definately get it on the rollers.. When I put a st1 kit on my old 998, it made quite a difference to the power, but then once it'd been on the rollers it was a different beast entirely. So much more power and really drivable. It cost me about £170 at Aldon, but they had to rebuild and re-curve my dizzy, and fit a custom needle. Well worth the money though!
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby maryQ1988 » Tue 20th Apr 2010, 04:21pm

Right...

I gave minisport a call today and asked them why they sent me an AAV needle with the stage 1 kit when i have been advised that the correct needle would either be an AAA or AAU and could they possibly send me another one. They replied "Weve been selling these kits for 30 or 40 years and hthat needle is specialy designed to get the most out of the engine with the stage kit" so i dont think im going to get anything from there.

I have called a company called Macdonald Racing who specialise in Morgans but tune all types of cars and have a full range of needles and other tuning parts. £60 + VAT per hour doesnt seem bad.

http://www.macdonald-racing.com/Pages/rolling_road.html

If the needle isnt the right one do you suggest i run the car concervativly so not to damage it too much?

Cheers.

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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby minimaniac » Tue 20th Apr 2010, 06:20pm

maryQ1988 wrote:If the needle isnt the right one do you suggest i run the car concervativly so not to damage it too much?


Definately. If the mixture is too weak (which it will be with the needle you have fitted it could burn out the valves or even worse. Take it very easy, avoid high speeds and keep the revs down until you get to a rolling road.

I got a reply from Minisport. I've saved the text of my email to them but its on the works computer but I suggested that they are risking their reputation and potentially risking claims against them if they don't get it right. I also suggested that they have a word with Rob if they didn't believe me.

This is the reply:

"Dear Dave,

Thank you for your email, and the information supplied, I will look into this and speak to Rob about it.

Hope this is acceptable, and I will let you know as soon as possible.

Very best regards,

Mick Holt,
Sales Manager."


So, let's see what happens next :wink:
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby minimaniac » Tue 20th Apr 2010, 06:34pm

Graph comparing needles

Image

The red one is the AAV
The yellow one is the AAL that you fitted
The blue is AAU
and the green is AAA

Speaks for itself really :wink:
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby dannoodle » Tue 20th Apr 2010, 07:24pm

You mean the green one is AAA???
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby philster » Tue 20th Apr 2010, 08:37pm

edited :D
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby minimaniac » Tue 20th Apr 2010, 11:53pm

philster wrote:edited :D


Cheers Phil. It's either the wrong glasses or dementia to blame :lol:
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby RikWalsh » Wed 21st Apr 2010, 12:47am

I know Mick Holt as well - He's normally a decent bloke.. I'll have to ask about this next time I'm up there.. See if there is a "different perspective" :lol:




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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby ACDodd » Wed 21st Apr 2010, 08:32am

I can't believe that I am still saying this after all these years.

After ANY modifications to an engine it NEEDS to be rolling road tuned to optimise both the ignition timing curve and the fueling to get the best from it.

If you want the best from your engine and any mods, roller it.

People forget, There are 4 items that need to be calibrated properly for an SU to fuel an engine properly,

1. Correct Piston Damper,
2. Correct Piston Spring,
3. Correct oil Viscosity,
4. Correct needle.

All these must be correct if you ant the engine to run efficiently at all speeds and throttle openings.

In my experience with rolling road tuning ST1 minis in the UK the AAA needle is too rich and the AAU is too lean at part throttle.

You normally need a custom needle to fuel these properly. Use a RED spring (Standard) and and 8103 Damper. The oil is down to testing on the dyno.

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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby minimaniac » Fri 23rd Apr 2010, 12:13am

ACDodd wrote:I can't believe that I am still saying this after all these years.

After ANY modifications to an engine it NEEDS to be rolling road tuned to optimise both the ignition timing curve and the fueling to get the best from it.

If you want the best from your engine and any mods, roller it.

People forget, There are 4 items that need to be calibrated properly for an SU to fuel an engine properly,

1. Correct Piston Damper,
2. Correct Piston Spring,
3. Correct oil Viscosity,
4. Correct needle.

All these must be correct if you ant the engine to run efficiently at all speeds and throttle openings.

In my experience with rolling road tuning ST1 minis in the UK the AAA needle is too rich and the AAU is too lean at part throttle.

You normally need a custom needle to fuel these properly. Use a RED spring (Standard) and and 8103 Damper. The oil is down to testing on the dyno.

AC



Absolutely right, but the AAV needle that is being supplied is significantly leaner than the AAU through every stage. :wink:

Anyway here's another reply:-

Further to our email on Tuesday, apologies for the delay in getting back to you, however, we would advise as follows.

We have used AAV and AAF needles on 998 stage 1 kits for twenty years and more. The fuelling is only theoretical, but based on rolling road tuning we have carried out. However, it is dependant on the condition of the carburettor, in particular the condition of the throttle spindle and carburettor body.

We hope that this information is of assistance, and if there is anything else we can help you with, please do not hesitate to contact us again, when we will be only too happy to assist in any way possible.

Very best regards,

Mick Holt,


IMHO a rich mixture is far from ideal and does cause wear on the bores etc but surely a lean mixture is far worse (valve / seat / piston / melted spark plug electrodes etc damage)?
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Re: tuning for a stage 1 998? mine runs poo!

Postby philster » Fri 23rd Apr 2010, 01:52pm

could be interesting if you took it for a tune at minisport with a rebuilt carb and their recommended needle and it was miles out.......

surely it has to depend on wether the engine is high/low compression, what octane of fuel you are using and a number of other factors......... a needle used 20 odd years ago on an a-series on leaded fuel cannot really compare to an A+ running unleaded?????
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